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Weaving Storylines: A/B/C Stories (PT53) – Transcript

PT53 shownotes and audio episode available here

This Paper Team transcript brought to you by Tracking Board’s Launch Pad Competitions. Use code PAPERTEAM to get $15 OFF when you enter a Launch Pad Competition

Alex: Welcome to Paper Team, a podcast about television writing and becoming a TV writer. I’m Alex Freedman, @TVCalling.

Nick: And I’m Nick Watson, @_njwatson.

Alex: And today, we’re gonna be talking about weaving storylines. Most TV shows have an A story, a B story, and a C story. Why do we bother cutting back and forth between plot lines and what are some interesting ways to do that in your own TV script? Let’s find out.

Nick: Let’s get our weave on.

Paper Scraps (FKA Odds-and-ends): Finding TV scripts

Nick: But first, our inaugural hot take segment. Or is…

Alex: Paper Scraps? Was that the suggestion?

Nick: Sure, why not. So here’s an email we received recently. And it goes, “Hi, I was listening to your Paper Team podcast about spec scripts and you mentioned there’s a library in LA where you can find scripts for educational purpose. Is there a website I can get scripts from? Specifically, I’ve been searching for the TV show Super Girl. Thank you, Ryanne Bennett.”

Alex: Well, if you’re in LA, I suggest checking out the Writers Guild Foundation Library on Third & Fairfax, which has an amazing collection of scripts, down to very recent TV episodes that might have actually aired only weeks ago. I remember last year when I went there to check out some How to Get Away With Murder scripts, they had the second season which had only aired a few days prior.

Nick: And Shonda was there writing a new episode and you had to look over her shoulder and get that one.

Alex: That was literally what I was doing, yes. Well, the best part of the library is that it’s actually open to anyone, so even if you’re not a OOJ member, you can still access those scripts. Now, outside of the city, it’s kind of a crapshoot. I’ve heard of people forming relationships with assistants and writers on those shows through social media or in person, and get those scripts through those means. However, given that scripts are tied to the studios or production companies and networks, it’s kind of out of their hands when it comes to sharing those.

Alex: And last but not least, the other solution is to kind of reverse engineer the structure from aired episodes. Now, it’s not as clean as reading a script, but over a season it does give you a good indication of the beats per act and how they kind of alternate the ABC stories, which is what we’re gonna be talking about later in this episode.

Nick: And it’s gonna teach you how to write better, there’s no harm in that. But I will say, opposite of that, you’d be surprised what you can find online. Mr. TVCalling right here has his own library on his website, which I’m sure he’ll provide a link to for you. There’s also a couple of other websites, we’ll put the links here because it’s gonna be confusing to read them out.

[chuckle]

Nick: It’s one called Zen and then a bunch of numbers.zen.co.uk, that has some good ones. There’s this one that’s like, sites.google.com/sites/tvwriting. Again, we’ll put all the links in there. The SimplyScripts is daily scripts and if you want movie scripts, there’s IMSDb for features. But more often than not, you’re gonna have trouble getting your hands on anything recent from any of these websites, anything within the last six months to a year, because those scripts are more protected, and that’s where making friends in the right places helps.

Nick: We’ve mentioned before the e-mail list server called the Script Collective, but you do actually need to show up at one of their mixes in LA to get added to that list. After that, you can just kinda put out your ISOs for whatever scripts you need from anywhere you’re out the world. There are also some other Google, Yahoo and Facebook groups that might be helpful, we’ve talked about some of them before. But the best tracking boards are the ones that you form with a small group of trusted friends and the best trusted friends are the ones that work here in LA, at useful places like agencies and on shows. So it is a bit of a Catch 22 if you don’t live in this town.

Alex: For sure. And now, let’s talk about weaving stories.

1 – Why does TV have A/B/C stories?

Alex: Before we dig into ABC stories, the reason why we are having this episode in the first place is because we received an e-mail by Samantha Gonzalez, who writes, “Hi, Alex, I read your latest TV 101 writing post about A, B and C storylines. I just wanted to drop you a note to say that I appreciated it and that I would love a podcast about this subject. It would be great to hear more about weaving various storylines together and listen to you and Nick deconstruct and demystify episodes or pilots of various master weavers.” Oh, how does that sound, Nick? Master weavers.

[laughter]

Nick: I’m weaving a basket right now.

Alex: I’ll be mentioning some elements of that TV 101 post in the podcast, but obviously, I’ll also be linking in to the show notes just in case you’re not familiar with it. But first, let’s dig into why do we use ABC stories in the first place? And the reason is pretty simple, you just cannot sustain usually 40-plus minutes of narrative with just a singular story, especially right out of the gate, meaning in the pilot or the first season. And the idea is that you really wanna create tension and some sense of pacing and expectation. The pacing of a TV show is usually dictated by that ABC story cutting back and how quickly you sort of alternate between those plot lines. The shorter the scenes, the faster the cuts, the more fast-paced it will seem. This is actually a trick used in montages. Think of any show with some kind of pop music montage at the end of it, that’s why it feels so fast-paced. Now, on the flipside, you can stay with a singular scene or storyline for a long time and build up the tension there.

Nick: Yeah. What is the Team America song? I believe the lyrics are like, “That’s when you need to put yourself to the test and show us the passage of time. We’re gonna need a montage. Oh, it takes a montage.” And then, later on it’s like, “Always fade out in a montage. It seems like more time has passed if you fade out in a montage.”

Alex: And now you’re all ripped. That’s what happened during the montage. You started working out.

[laughter]

Nick: Yeah, all you gotta do is just a bunch of quick cuts. Anyway, I think what A, B and C stories do and alternating between that, it also helps us switch between different sets of characters. So more often than not, your A, B and C stories don’t share characters in terms of who is driving those stories or who they’re about. Although the other stories can intersect and make guest appearances in a scene that is about someone else in that story or when things will come to a head at the end, which we’ll discuss later. The A, B and C stories also help us to separate themes or aspects of the theme that that episode is exploring.

Nick: Now, for comedy, switching between storylines can also be a device to service dramatic irony and juxtaposition. It’s like, “Oh, Bob would never do that.” Cut to, Bob doing exactly that. And then you go into his story thread for a scene. And even movies will have multiple stories to cut back and forth to, usually only a couple, and we’ll kinda stay with these stories for a little bit longer. It’s rarely as rapid fire as the switches that we see in television.

Alex: Now, let’s talk about what ABC stories actually look like in TV shows. Nick, what about comedies?

Nick: So for a half-hour comedy, what you’re looking at is usually an A story, a B story and a runner. If you don’t know what a runner is, it’s roughly, I don’t know, like three beats of a recurring joke or a minor character. It’s not a fully fleshed out story that resolves itself, it’s really more or less a joke that’s spaced out across an episode. For example, in Seinfeld, Kramer had a lot of runners, all of his harebrained schemes, like that episode where he has the Japanese businessmen sleeping in his dresser. And then, the steam from the hot tub seals them in, all that kind of thing. It’s not a fully fleshed out story, but it has its own little arc to it.

Alex: Just to be clear. It’s not Kramer literally running every episode for three scenes.

[laughter]

Nick: Yes. It can involve running, but “runner” is just the term we use for it. And if you’re having trouble understanding what an ABC story looks like practically in a comedy, if you remember the classic Simpsons episode Marge versus the Monorail, then the A story there…

Alex: “Monorail. Mono-Do’h… ”

Nick: Would be Marge’s objection to and suspicion of the monorail. And then the B story is Homer getting his job as the monorail conductor. A runner might be something like Mr. Burns having been fined by the city, which is how they got the money for the monorail in the first place. And then he has these recurring jokes where he is showing up trying to get the money back like, “Hello, I’m Mr. Snoeb from some place far, far away.”

[chuckle]

Nick: Eventually these storylines do come together. Marge’s mistrust of Lyle Lanley leads her to discover the monorail is shoddily constructed and they’ve been duped by a conman, so she rushes off to save Homer, who’s now in danger in his new job as the monorail conductor on its maiden voyage, and those two plot lines intersect.

Nick: Now, more traditional older sitcoms like Frasier and many of the animated ones we see today do only use two acts. So it can be really tricky to accommodate more than two actual stories, an A and a B, within those structural boundaries, as well as just the space you have on the page and the time you have in the episode to balance between them. Lastly, for 11-minute kids animation, it really is often just an A story, just one story and maybe a runner, again, due to the space and time limitations. If you’ve ever tried writing a 15-page episode of TV, you realize just how quickly you run out of reading.

Alex: 15 pages!

[chuckle]

Nick: It’s like a short film, basically.

Alex: Yeah. Now, on the drama end, it can run anywhere from ABC stories down to the end of the alphabet. Now, procedurals have traditionally their A stories be about the case of the week, with the B story about either a secondary character or the private life of one of the leads. And the C story, that is kind of the runner for the season or long term arcs. Now, serialized series will have stories diverge, usually based on characters, primarily, although sometimes they can diverge based on theme, and we’ll talk about other atypical examples down the line. If you look at even the Game of Thrones pilot, the A story is mostly about Ned Stark, the B story is mostly about Daenerys and Viserys and then the C story is mostly about the Lannisters. So even in a show as serialized as Game of Thrones, you will still have those kind of ABC storylines happening concurrently.

Nick: Yeah. And structurally, usually what setting up these stories is doing is allowing it to build towards all of them coming together for some kind of big payoff at the end of the episode. You’re setting up two or three disparate elements that may not seem like they have any connection, and along the course of the episode or maybe for a drama along the course of the season, you’re gonna find out how they all end up crashing together in a comedy, in a humorous way, or in drama in a interesting and cool way. It’s kinda like the setup for a magic trick, like, “Here’s the hat. Here’s a bird. And here’s a playing card.” By the end of the trick, the bird’s gonna be flying out of the hat with the card in its mouth. And it’s just we’re watching the process of how to get there and being surprised and amazed by it. Also think about it’s a feature, but Pulp Fiction is a fantastic example of storylines crossing over, coming together and paying off. Maybe a few more storylines than you expect in TV, though.

Alex: It’s basically the equivalent of setting up a gun in the first act and shooting it in the third act…

Nick: But then, instead of one gun you’ve got multiple guns hidden around the room and we’re cutting to all the different guns, and eventually they all go off.

Alex: Oh, my God.

[laughter]

Nick: Chekhov’s A, B and C stories.

2 – Nuts and bolts of using A/B/C stories

Alex: We’ve looked at the point of ABC stories, but now let’s talk about the nuts and bolts of them and putting them to use in practice. So first off, which storyline should you spend the most time on in your TV script?

Nick: Just by virtue of the way that they are named, you go down the alphabet in order of the importance and the weight given to them. The most important story is your A story, then your B, then your C. You can’t have an A story that is only there for one scene or is inconsequential. The way that we name them indicates how important and how weighty they are.

Alex: Yeah. The real focus of your episode should be the A story. That is the meat of the episode, since it is about your main character, and therefore requires many story beats to achieve a compelling character’s journey. Now, once you figure that out, you can work from your other characters and fill in the other narrative needs that you may need. Some B and C stories directly come from the A story sometimes, but maybe the main character is actually the one generating a problem in his or her A story, which snowballs into a secondary character having to deal with it in the B story, that was something related again to that A problem.

Nick: But let’s think about when you should start and end each of these storylines. Now, your A story is usually what we’re gonna open on. And then you might, for example, cut to the B story and then you’re gonna cut back to the A story. And then the next time you cut, you go to your C story. Your A story is that anchor that you’re returning to. It might feel unusual to spend a lot of time you cut from your B to your C, then back to the B then off to a D, and not visit your A story for 10 or 15 minutes. You really wanna be going back to that anchor as much as possible, that’s gonna carry you through. Typically, the story that starts first will also end last. So your B and C story are gonna start later and wrap up sooner, letting the A story serve as that kind of spine of the overall tale that’s being told.

Alex: A bit of A, a little bit of B and C and D, kinda want to hear you rap now.

[laughter]

Alex: For dramas, by and large the same idea remains about cutting back from the A story to then return to it. However, I wanna say it’s kind of hard to be prescriptive when it comes to exact scene count for drama scripts, as every genre will tackle that pacing differently. Legal procedural may stay with its A story longer than a science fiction ensemble show that needs to set up the world. Now, with that said, when I work on a new pilot, I kinda tend to look at the ABC structures of similarly paced shows. So for example, I was writing a pilot kind of akin to a primetime soap. So I started looking at pilots of other primetime soaps. One of the pilots I looked at the most was actually Revenge on ABC, which had a clear five act ABC delineation.

Nick: That’s appropriate.

[laughter]

Alex: Maybe that’s why there’s the ABC network. But definitely not.

[laughter]

Alex: I’m also familiar, obviously, with most of the ShondaLand pilots. We’ve talked about some of them on this very podcast multiple times. However, the pacing of those shows is a bit too extreme for me. Shonda shows tend to run the alphabet, so it didn’t quite fit with what I was going for, and the same can be said about my peer piece, where I looked at some HBO dramas, like Band of Brothers and Rome, to get a sense of how they would intertwine those plot lines. The bottom line is this, when it comes to figuring out the back and forth of a story, I personally tend to look at pacing over just the content when I try to find examples to imitate or get inspired by. But again, these are just jumping off points for my outline, not necessarily the structure that will be carved in stone for the draft.

Nick: And when we’re looking in each act, at maybe how many scenes or beats from each story should be present, for comedy at least, I like to go with the rule of threes. There are three beats in a joke, it’s a set up, a confirmation and a punchline. And then, so flowing on from that you have this kind of fractal thing where there are also three major beats in a scene, there are three major beats in an act, there are three kind of beats when you really break it down in a story, like I said, it’s fractal. Now, obviously, this isn’t set in stone but it’s a good kinda minimalistic guide to get you started and you can just fill it out from there and what works for you.

Alex: And in dramas you need four beats to make someone cry.

[chuckle]

Alex: No, not quite the same way. To be fair, unless there’s some sort of narrative reason for why you’re not going back to a certain story, like if there’s a big reveal at the end of act three or something, the ABC stories should be touched on in every act of your drama pilot at least, and the reason is simple, you will lose your reader or your audience if you suddenly go back to a C story you haven’t seen in, what, 20 pages? That doesn’t make sense. So structurally, it again depends on the pacing and format you’re going for, but this is something you’ll figure out in your own outline stage and should be clear, either through notes or even just your imagination, like, “Nick, sit back, close your eyes and then play the pilot that you just wrote in your head. Does that pacing make sense?”

Nick: No. It’s terrible. Oh, boy.

[chuckle]

Alex: Well, that’s a bummer.

[laughter]

Nick: It’ll get better. But what about… Is there ever a time when you just do one single A story?

Alex: There are very few dramas perhaps only single episode in all of these, let’s say, that just have an A story for that full hour, and that is because to maintain dramatic tension, you will want to cut away to something else. The fewer the stories, the more important it is to have a compelling narrative and characters that propel you through that script. You don’t have the luxury to cut away to something else, which can be a double-edged sword. Now, the first half of Breaking Bad’s Ozymandias episode makes the best case in my mind for an A only episode, but it has the benefit of being the payoff to a five-year-long journey. In other words, it’s not something you’ll wanna do in every other episode or even your pilot.

Nick: And I’ve commented on this before. In the comedy, Master of None, there’s a great article where Alan Yang talks about his decision with Aziz Ansari to structurally stick with only an A story centered on Aziz, at least in season one; I haven’t actually seen season two yet, so I can’t comment. But dramatically what that does is it changes the pacing, it slows everything down and gives it more of like a feature film or dramatic feel because you’re not cutting away to something zany happening in a B story, and you’re not building quite as much tension between multiple storylines. You’re just kinda stuck with this guy and his experience, and you’re seeing everything he sees and you’re feeling everything he feels minute by minute. It’s a more intimate storytelling technique, especially for something that’s effectively a character study, and it might be part of why Master of None handles that heart aspect of its story so well.

Alex: Yeah. I definitely agree with the whole heart and intimate storytelling approach. Sometimes I do believe it is worth sticking with essential A story all the way through if you’re going for a specific emotional payoff. Six Feet Under is a show that isn’t actually afraid to do that in a couple of places. In one of the most intense episodes of the show, David, one of the leads, is taken hostage by a psychopath and although the episode starts like any other with an ABCD kind of story mix, mid-way through, the focus of the episode shifts entirely towards David’s nightmarish situation.

Alex: Now, not only is over half the episode devoted to that single storyline but, more importantly, once the situation heightens, meaning when you understand mid-way through the episode that the other guy is a psycho, the episode grabs you and doesn’t let you go until its final seconds. Clearly, the writer wanted the viewer to be put into David’s shoes, staying with the emotions, in this case overwhelmingly negative ones, is one way to heighten both the tension and importance of the episode, meaning anything can happen. And especially today, viewers are so used to a fairly quick back and forth between scenes, that when you disrupt that dynamic and devote several pages back-to-back to a single storyline, you’re gonna be making that point clear. Let me ask you this, Nick. How far down the alphabet rabbit hole should we go?

Nick: I’ll use every storyline I see from Shonda A to Shonda Z.

[laughter]

Alex: Can you sing this or is that copyrighted?

Nick: It might be. I don’t know. Let’s not risk it. We’re already making enough enemies.

3 – Interesting and non-traditional uses of weaving A/B/C stories in TV

Nick: So now that we understand the nuts and bolts of using A, B and C stories, what are some more kind of interesting or non-traditional uses of those storylines in TV?

Alex: Well, the first one I wanna bring up is character-based or theme-based ABC plot lines, and this is pretty much the most traditional way of doing ABC stories. Essentially, you have a thematic thorough-line in your episode and then you inter-cut between the ABC stories based on each character. Now, Third Rock From The Sun on NBC was actually great at doing that through the prism of exploring a human concept, because the idea of the show was you had this family of aliens that landed on earth and were kind of exploring what it means to really be human. And you actually had one episode that was about this idea of cons and crimes, and the A story was about Dick doing jury duty, the B story was about Sally falling for a conman and the C story was Harry and Tommy volunteering for a class project where they cannot communicate for a week. So I thought that was kind of a cool way of exploring one theme but through three different storylines.

Nick: Absolutely. And that is such a great show. One of my favorites. Now, there’s also this thing that people call an AAA story, not the towing company.

[chuckle]

Nick: But what they’re essentially saying is that they’re giving equal weight completely to three different characters or story threads. Now, this might happen in a true ensemble kind of show, but it is rare for most shows that one story doesn’t take the focus. For example, you might see this kind of AAA story in something like Modern Family, where you have a couple of different families in comedic units whose stories are usually equally important. They’re not just all supporting characters under Kevin James or something. And it doesn’t mean that those A stories can’t intersect, it just means they’re being given equal time and attention.

Alex: Yeah. I would say the AAA format is pretty uncommon for dramas. Some ensemble shows may be close to it, something like Game of Thrones, the only connection being some loose thematic element. But again, I feel like if you really look at the breakdown of each act, most of the time you will have sort of an A story over a B story, over a C story. Now, you can sort of go to the other extreme of that format with separate character storylines that interact on a macro level. There was this show called Boomtown on NBC that lasted only a couple of seasons by Graham Yost, who you may know as the creator of Justified. And it had a kind of a very interesting and unique concept. Each week you would see a criminal investigation from different perspectives, kind of in the similar format as the movie Rashomon. So you would go from the point of view of a police officer to the paramedic, or to the reporter, or to the criminal. And I actually really recommend checking out at least the pilot to kind of see that very unique structure of the show.

Nick: That’s interesting. Was it the one crime throughout the season or was it a different crime each episode?

Alex: Each episode was a different crime. It wasn’t at all serialized. It was very much like a procedural. And especially for NBC it was way ahead of its time. It premiered in 2002.

Nick: Oh, wow.

Alex: So this was…

Nick: It was groundbreaking, then.

Alex: Yeah. Another type of ABC structure is this idea of intersecting plot lines. That is when you have multiple plot lines that start in parallel to each other and will intersect later in the episode or vice versa, where they branch off from one another initially. 24 is a cool example of a show that actually starts off with separate plot lines between Jack Bauer and David Palmer before they converge later in the season. The show either used that as a platform or the B and C stories were emanating from something caused in the A story, as mentioned before. So for example, Kim Bauer getting lost in the woods and meeting up with a cougar. That was an actual story. [chuckle]

Nick: A literal cougar? Or…

Alex: A literal cougar.

[chuckle]

Alex: Have you not seen 24? You should really watch it.

Nick: Yeah. I haven’t seen every season.

Alex: Second season, this is one of the most infamous storylines.

[chuckle]

Nick: Oh, gosh.

Alex: She literally meets a cougar in the woods of LA.

Nick: Does Kiefer Sutherland have to beat up a cougar? Does he wrestle it?

Alex: If only. That would have made it actually good but…

Nick: You should have been in that writers’ room. Yeah. So as Alex is saying, this kind of intersecting plot lines thing, it’s super common for comedies, especially ensemble comedies, but it’s usually done on more of an episodic basis rather than a serialized one over the season. As I mentioned earlier, just the sheer fact of these two or three disparate storylines intersecting in and of themselves is often highly comedic, especially when they start off in strange places, it often comes as a surprise or a reveal. For example, there’s an episode of Scrubs where Dr. Cox is having problems with his ex-wife and then in a separate storyline JD hooks up with this new patient of his and of course those two stories intersect when we find out that this patient JD just slept with was Dr. Cox’s ex-wife.

Alex: That was kind of the pilot of Modern Family, wasn’t it? You had like three different plot lines and then the twist at the end of the pilot of Modern Family was “Oh, wait, they’re all one family. I get the concept of the show, I’m clever.”

Nick: Exactly.

Alex: Now, in terms of more unique approaches to the intersecting plot line idea, there was this other cancelled NBC show called Awake by Kyle Killen, with Jason Isaacs, actually, from a few years ago. And essentially the story was about this guy who was living two separate realities after a car accident. In one reality, his wife survived the accident and in the other his son did. Now, the lead does not know which reality is real and sees actually two therapists in each world. And the cuts between the A and B stories were often about how one reality would react to the other. And since it was a cop show, whenever he would start a case in one reality, then another case, somewhat linked to that first one, would pop up in the other, and the result would be two parallel plot lines that would intersect.

Nick: Sounds complicated. Was it good?

Alex: It was good. And the reason why it was cancelled is the reason you just outlined. It was very complicated for people.

Nick: For a popular audience, yeah.

Alex: Yeah.

Nick: Another kind of use for these A, B and C storylines is more non-linear storytelling. Now, the classic example is flashbacks. And what that often allows for is an interesting use of a storyline that takes place in the past but has an impact on the future or what’s happening in the present. So for example, in a comedy, someone might be recollecting a drunken night they had and pieces of their memories from the last night are coming back to them, and that’s helping or hindering them in their efforts to clean up their mess and make up for the mistakes they made last night or cover it up in front of their loved ones. So we have a story that’s actually unfolding to the audience and even the character, if they don’t remember it, even though it already happened, but it has consequences for the storyline the character is dealing with in the present.

Alex: And an iconic example of using flashbacks in storytelling is the show Lost.

[flashback woosh sound] [laughter]

Nick: I didn’t know what was real and what was…

[chuckle]

Alex: This was a flashback. We just flashed back in time. Anyway, Lost, as I just mentioned, is a show that mastered non-linear storytelling. Lost actually pushed the envelope in more ways than one when it came to non-linear storytelling and weaving storylines. A few years back I actually wrote an in-depth article about how that show revolutionized storytelling, which I will link to in the show notes. But the gist is this, “The tour de force of Lost, in my mind, was that it was able to intertwine those two narratives and create an emotional journey that would resonate both in the past, off island, as well as in the present, on the island.”

Alex: One of my personal favorite flashback moments from the show is the final flashback of the episode Walkabout, where it is revealed that Locke, spoiler alert from a 12-year old show, was in a wheelchair before the crash. And it kind of turned audience expectations on its head from the get-go. And the same goes for another favorite episode of mine, The Constant, with Desmond. The episode mixed flashbacks that are non-linear on a chronological standpoint with a linear character arc living through those flashbacks. Now, I know that almost did not make sense, but just watch the episode to get what I mean.

Alex: Now, beyond all this timeline nonsense, there’s another reason why flashbacks were so important in Lost, and it goes back to the original reason why you as a writer need to cut between ABC stories. We brought it up, it’s called pacing. And this is what Damon Lindelof had to say on the subject.

Nick: Hi, I’m Damon Lindelof.

[laughter]

Nick: No, what he said was, “We knew early on that the flashbacks were going to have to be a prominent aspect of the series, even if we didn’t use flashbacks in the pilot other than to tell the story of the crash. We knew as we were shooting the pilot that the only way to do the series would be to use the art of the stall. In any given season of 24, there’s not that much happening but they give the illusion of constant suspense. On Lost, if every episode were about discovering the mysteries of the island, then we would be sunk because there was an inevitability to that. And eventually the characters decided, ‘We’re gonna explore this island to figure out what this place is.’ Whereas if it’s, ‘We’re going to figure out how to live with each other and figure out what this island is,’ and we’re also gonna learn about the characters before the crash, it’s emotionally compelling. And that was the only way we saw to do the show.”

Alex: Also of note is that part of that back and forth in Lost was based on the storytelling methods used in Watchman and Slaughterhouse-Five, which anyone listening to this episode should read right now. Right now.

Nick: Press pause. Come back in like a couple days.

[chuckle]

Nick: Another example of these kind of multiple narratives being told across different times in history is the pilot of This Is Us. And this is a big spoiler alert, but one storyline is actually happening in the ’70s and the other one is happening in the present, but the audience just assumes they’re all happening at the same time. And then, they do intersect right at the end when we realize the storyline from the ’70s was actually the story of these three kids we’re now seeing in the present when they were born or adopted.

Alex: Wow, mind-blowing.

Nick: And the characters were the father and mother of these three people.

Alex: Groundbreaking.

Nick: So kind of like Modern Family but in a different way.

[chuckle]

Alex: In a dramatic way.

Nick: And obviously, comedies are widely known for using another device called cutaways. I think Family Guy is the king of this now. They used to use it a little bit in the Simpsons season four, but the showrunners decided against it. And stuff like Malcolm in the Middle as well. The classic like, “Oh, man, this is worse than the time when… ” and we cut away to something funny happening. Or, “Marge, I’ve never stolen anything in my life,” and we cut away to see Homer stealing something. They’re often used in the service of a joke and it’s usually some combination of what we said before with the flashback or dramatic irony. But the important thing is that cutaways are standalone units of information and story, that they never really have a story thread that needs to be followed through. And they often don’t impact the story in a meaningful way outside of maybe a laugh for the audience.

Nick: Dream sequences are another interesting technique that live somewhere, again, between the flashback and the cutaway. And what they’re often used for is to show something of a character’s inner desires or fears, but their impact is really just on character or exploration of a theme. These characters will wake up from the dream and the events that they just experienced obviously haven’t impacted the plot because it was a dream, often we’re misled into thinking what’s happening is real and they wake up and it was all a dream. Unless, of course, the character then goes out and acts on what he or she just saw or experienced if they think it’s a premonition that’s gonna come true or something.

Alex: I definitely recommend people check out the shows Oz and Carnival when it comes to stories merging flashbacks with dream sequences and premonition, I thought those two shows dealt with that topic really well. But just going back to sort of non-linear storytelling, Arrested Development in my mind is a very interesting example of a show that switched structure between its first three seasons and its fourth on Netflix. And what I mean by that is, essentially it started off as an ensemble comedy with the traditional ABC structure and the occasional non-linear flashback or flash forward. Then, season four happened and many people seemed to dislike that season. And in my mind, one of the reasons why that is, is because the audience was turned off by this new structure of the episode. Their formula was different from the network version. Instead of ABC stories based on the ensemble, the show became solely dedicated to a single character for each episode and the ABC stories were based on them at different times instead of different characters.

Nick: It was definitely a big change. Another technique, and we’re starting to get into the realm of things that aren’t used very often but just for kind of special occasions, are things like alternate realities and split screens. So there’s a great Malcolm in the Middle episode called Bowling, which actually won Emmys for the writer and director, it’s kinda like a parody of Sliding Doors. So what happens in this episode is Malcolm and Reese are getting ready to go to a friend’s bowling party but they need to be driven there by either Lois or Hal. Dewey is currently being punished because he killed the neighbor’s parakeet and so one of the parents has to stay home with him. Lois and Hal are asked who’s gonna take them. And then, we kind of split off into split screens with Hal offering to take him on one side and Lois offering on the other. Now, from this point forward the episode actually alternates between those two realities as to which parent takes him to the party and which parent stays home. So they obviously get into all sorts of crazy shenanigans in either reality and in the end the two realities are shown side by side once again, with Hal and Lois simultaneously coming home and saying to their spouse, “Next time, you take them.”

Nick: That was a fairly groundbreaking episode at the time and it later inspired a very popular episode of Community, called Remedial Chaos Theory, again with multiple timelines that change with the throw of a dice as to which character should go and get the pizza and then is absent from that storyline. I’s the whole, the darkest timeline thing.

[chuckle]

Alex: I’m a big fan of alternate timelines, so I love that episode. Coupling is actually also another comedy show that wasn’t afraid of transforming their formula on a regular basis. There’s an episode called Split at the beginning of the third season. Now, at the end of the second season two of the leads split up. And not unintentionally, the third season premiere of Coupling is a split screen episode where we see what on one side the girls are doing and on the other side what the guys are doing. And as the name implies, the entire episode is one continuous split screen and it was still filmed in front of a live audience because it’s a half hour…

Nick: Oh, wow.

Alex: Which means they had to shoot the two sides at the same time on two different sets.

Nick: That’s pretty incredible.

Alex: Pretty incredible.

Nick: And actually now that I’m thinking of it, there was a great Rick and Morty episode which splits into two realities like that, and then it splits again into four, and then into eight. And then there are like 16 or 32 storylines happening at once on the screen, which obviously it gets a little ridiculous at that point, but they definitely took that trope and they just pushed it to the extreme.

Alex: Do you need like a 70-inch TV to see what’s happening on screen?

[laughter]

Nick: I think so, I’m curious how much detail they put into each one of those.

Alex: Classic ABC stories.

[chuckle]

Nick: Guys, get your 32 stories. That’s more than there are letters in the alphabet. You’re gonna have to to A1, A2, A3.

Alex: “Let’s do the omega, alpha, beta story right now.”

[laughter]

Nick: Yeah. Go into the Greek alphabet, it’ll be great.

Takeaways and Resources

Alex: Nick, what are some takeaways for this episode?

Nick: So, number one, A, B and C storyline structure is used for pacing and tension, as well as maintaining the audience’s interest by breaking up and alternating between stories and characters and themes in more manageable chunks.

Alex: Number two, your most important story and the one you’ll be spending the most time with is obviously the A story, and the other letters follow in order of their weight and importance in the episode.

Nick: And number three, there are many interesting and non-traditional techniques that you can use with multiple storylines, including non-linear storytelling, intersecting plot lines or exploring different facets of the same theme across different storylines, not to mention more ambitious devices like cutaways, flashbacks, dream sequences, split screens, etcetera.

Alex: What are some resources for our listeners?

Nick: I may have mentioned this one before, but it’s worth bringing it up again, there’s a great book called Elephant Bucks by Sheldon Bull, who wrote for shows like Sabrina the Teenage Witch and Mash, I think, and things like that, so a classic experienced writer. And essentially what I love about this book is it’s a great resource for that two-act sitcom structure I talked about and how all those storylines work together within that. And also there’s an interesting article, I’m not gonna say it’s prescriptive by any means or it should be relied upon, but it’s called, Cracking the Sitcom code. It’s an Atlantic article and it’s essentially, someone has sat there and analyzed a bunch of sitcoms and they’re like, “Well, by minutes one to three this thing usually happens, by minutes five to eight this is where the story takes this kind of turn.” So it’s an interesting way of looking at sitcoms. And again, it shouldn’t be prescriptive but is an interesting tool to use.

Alex: And on my end, I’ll be recommending the book Television Writing from the Inside Out by Larry Brody, that also tackles kind of the more structural aspect of ABC stories. But I will also recommend a few pages on this website called TV Tropes, which is about TV tropes, as the name implies.

Nick: No way.

[chuckle]

Alex: And on there you do have a few pages dedicated to different kinds of storyline weaving. One is about traditional plot threads, one is named “plot parallel,” and one is called “two lines, no waiting,” and on it you will find a wide array of examples from all sorts of media, not just TV, to give you even more ideas on what ABC stories can look like.

Nick: Yeah. It’s a great website and surprisingly can be a resource for writers, even though it’s pointing out tropes that you should avoid.

Alex: It’s the ultimate procrastination tool.

Nick: As always, thank you so much for taking the time to listen. You can get the show notes of the episode at paperteam.co/53.

Alex: You can leave us reviews at paperteam.co/iTunes. Even though iTunes now is called Apple podcast or something, we’re still doing /iTunes.

Nick: Any reviews you’re gonna leave us will make us feel warm and fuzzy inside, attract new listeners and we’ll stick it to Apple for changing the name.

Alex: Speaking of sticking it to Apple or iTunes or whatever, we had a bunch of reviews that popped up recently that we wanted to read and give a shout-out to.

Nick: So the first one is by someone called harback from Canada and the title is, “Infinitely informative and entertaining.” And it reads, “No matter if you’re writing for television or another medium, if you’re dabbling or knee-deep in your career, you’ll be enlightened by this podcast and your toolset will grow as a writer. These two gents are excellent hosts, exploring their topics forensically and manage to be entertaining without the trappings of ego usually found in the business.”

Alex: Well, excuse you. I have a huge ego, alright?

[laughter]

Nick: Yeah. Just Alex.

Alex: Are we CSI? Are we exploring topics forensically? I love that. I love that.

Nick: Zoom in, enhance on storylines.

[laughter]

Alex: Let’s enhance weaving storylines. Another review we got was written by SaraRae2 and she, I’m assuming, wrote, “Best podcast for up-and-coming writers. I love this podcast. Alex and Nick are so informative and cover such a wide range of topics for writers. They approach writing from every angle and are so concise and well-spoken about writing. I love hearing about their own experiences but also enjoy that they bring so many industry guests that shine a light on so many different areas of the industry and writing. Highly recommend.”

Nick: Oh, thanks, Sarray, SaraRae. I said “Sarray” for some reason, to me that’s your name now. And our last one is entitled Paper Team = Rad by liz_maestri, and simply says, “I love this show, thorough, intelligent, informative and fun. My biggest complaint is that I’m too far away to get beers with Nick and Alex. Thanks and keep up the good work.” You can mail them to us.

[laughter]

Nick: We’ll figure it out.

Alex: We’ll drink them in a podcast.

[laughter]

Nick: We’ll Skype the beers with you.

Alex: Yes. That is a thing we could do.

Nick: Thanks so much for those reviews, we appreciate reading them and any feedback that you have, please leave it and we’ll check it out.

Alex: paperteam.co/itunes

Nick: And thanks again to our sponsor, the Tracking Board’s 2017 Launch Pad Feature Competition. Paper Team listeners can use the code PAPERTEAM, all caps, all one word, at the checkout to save $15 off their entry. It’s a lot of money. You can learn more about all the Launch Pad’s current competitions and exclusive partners by visiting tblaunchpad.com.

Alex: And as always, I’m on Twitter @TVCalling.

Nick: And I’m @_njwatson. If you have any feedback, thoughts, opinions, complaints about iTunes or beers to mail us…

Alex: Or storyline weavings.

Nick: If you wanna weave us some storylines, you can send them on through to [email protected]. And what are we doing next week?

Alex: Well, next week, hopefully, we’ll be able to release our Lily Cabello episode that we mentioned, I guess, two weeks ago now? We came back recently from Comic-Con and on the road back we recorded this awesome episode with Lily discussing Nielsen ratings and audience research, and it is very informative for writers.

Nick: We will hopefully get that one back soon and have it in your hands or ears. We’ll have it in your ears. Get ready for it in your ears.

Alex: This doesn’t sound invasive at all.

[laughter]

Alex: See you next week.

Nick: We’ll see you then.

PT53 shownotes and audio episode available here

TV Casting ft. Becca Burgess (Last Man Standing/Undateable/Cougar Town) (PT57)

Alex and Nick invite Becca Burgess, casting associate on ABC’s Last Man Standing, NBC’s Undateable, and TBS’ Cougar Town, to discuss how casting works in television.

What is the casting process for TV shows, pilots and regular episodes? What can TV writers learn from casting? How much interaction does casting have with writers and producers? What are differences between casting comedy and drama? How does casting approach writers’ character descriptions?

The Paper Team gives a read…

SHOWNOTES

Content

Becoming a casting associate, casting TV pilots and episodes, finding series regulars, interactions with writers and producers, approaching diversity, using character descriptions, casting discovery, reading process, advice for writers (00:55)
Resources and Next Week On (34:52)

Links

Becca Burgess on Twitter
Annie (Musical)
Me and Earl and the Dying Girl
Breakdown Services
Superbad
SAG-AFTRA
Taft-Hartley report
13 Reasons Why

This episode brought to you by Tracking Board’s Launch Pad Writing Competitions

Use code PAPERTEAM to get $15 OFF when you enter a Launch Pad Competition

Special thanks to Alex Switzky for helping us edit this episode.

If you enjoyed this episode (and others), please consider leaving us an iTunes review at paperteam.co/itunes! :)

You can find Paper Team on Twitter:
Alex@TVCalling
Nick@_njwatson
If you have any questions, comments or feedback, you can e-mail us: [email protected]

TV Dialogue 101 (PT51) – Transcript

PT51 shownotes and audio episode available here

This Paper Team transcript brought to you by Tracking Board’s Launch Pad Competitions. Use code PAPERTEAM to get $15 OFF when you enter a Launch Pad Competition

Alex Freedman: Welcome to Paper Team, a podcast about television writing and becoming a TV writer. I’m Alex Freedman, @TVCalling.

Nick Watson: And I’m Nick Watson, @_njwatson.

Alex: And today we’re gonna be talking about dialogue in television. What is the point of dialogue? What defines good or bad dialogue and some common pitfalls to avoid.

Odds-and-ends: Review & Pitches

Nick: All right. And welcome again to our Hot Take segment, or Odds and Ends or whatever it is that we’re calling us.

Alex: Have we decided on a name?

Nick: We should probably figure out a name.

Alex: I think in the show notes it’s described as Odds and Ends. So I guess for now, we’re gonna be referring to it as Odds and Ends.

Nick: All right. Well, here’s an odd for you guys. We recently received somewhat of a mixed review on iTunes and we wanted to address the concerns that the person had left with us.

Alex: So this review was actually written by a person called MetaMotivation. I think he or she was very interested in Maslow’s Pyramid of Needs. And he or she wrote, “Disappointing.” “There are several episodes which contain interesting or usable information and the hosts can be enjoyable to listen to. They also can come across as very young and green in the industry. They reference articles they read or other podcasts far more often than their own experience. This would be fine, except I sometimes hear them get things wrong. When the host of an informational podcast gets some fact wrong, it makes me doubt the rest of the information.” Now Nick, did you know that, despite the fact this is a podcast about breaking into TV, we are considered young and green in the industry?

Nick: Yeah. I guess we just wanted to say that that’s literally the point of our podcast, is that we’re also trying to break in. And that’s the point of view and the perspective that we wanted to make this podcast from, to share our experiences with other people. So therefore, we can’t draw from a long list of experiences to give to people. All we can tell you is what we’ve been through. So, the reason that we reference other podcasts and other people who are more experienced, is because that we’re learning things from them and we wanna share that with people and then we’ll communicate as much of our experiences as we can.

Alex: And also those references usually are references for a reason. These are not necessarily things that people question as resources, I think, at least. Showrunners and other professional writers who discuss their own writing process and how their rooms work, like Jane Espenson on Buffy that we…

Nick: I think it would be a lot worse if we didn’t reference anyone else, and we were just trying to tell you what we knew as individuals and what we had experienced, because as we have openly said, we’re still fairly new to this too, and so we’re just trying to give you as much as we know but also point you in the right direction of things that really helped us.

Alex: Yeah, I think it would be very pretentious to pretend that we’re… This all knowing entity that will give you all these answers.

Nick: That’s certainly not what we’re looking to do. To address the other point in terms of getting things wrong, I’m sure that we have gotten a couple of things wrong given the amount of stuff that we have been talking about and going over. And if anyone does spot those things, we’d like to know specifically what it was we got wrong so we can go back and correct ourselves, or even just know for our own information. So that would be more helpful if someone was able to tell us what it was, and we can go back and look at that.

Alex: Right. I think there’s a distinction between being wrong about a fundamental business element, and then mislabeling a show as being that story. And from what I understand, we did get a couple things wrong in terms of referencing. I think Snow White and the Huntsman in an episode…

Nick: Sure, yeah.

Alex: In reference to a specific fairy tale, but it’s disingenuous to discount the rest of the episode, or the show itself, just because of a misnomer of a reference instead of just a fundamental error in the conceit.

Nick: Yeah I mean, no one is perfect. I admit that we are going to make mistakes along the way, and anytime anyone wants to let us know what that is, we are more than happy to stop and correct that.

Alex: If MetaMotivation wants to send us an email [email protected] with the list of errors and mistakes or things we got wrong, we’d be more than happy to discuss them on the podcast as well.

Nick: Absolutely.

Alex: So please do. Whoever’s listening to this, if you think we have done so much wrong that we deserve a stern email, then please go ahead and send it. Because I feel like we are an open podcast but we’re not open enough to discuss those things on air.

Nick: Absolutely. And we do appreciate any feedback whether it’s positive or negative, or criticism or praise. We’re always open to that. So, moving on.

Alex: Moving on. I know we got another email or question, Nick?

Nick: Yes. It was actually a tweet. I got a tweet from Jordan Giddins, and she said, “I just started listening to Paper Team podcasts by TV Calling and NJ Watson. It is chock-full of great information for television writers,” and then followed up with, “I’m happy to have found you guys. I’d love to learn more about pitching.” I said that we would put that on the list, and maybe we’ll do another episode going into a little more detail on pitching, but in the meantime, I thought we would do a little mini Hot Take segment element of “What are some pitches that have been done to death? What are some cliches, some tropes, things that are just been overpitched everywhere?”

Alex: Literally done to death in some cases right?

Nick: That’s right. So speaking of that one, these are from my personal experience of working as sort of a development executive of a company and pitches that I’ve heard. So many heaven or hell or purgatory workplace comedies. Everyone’s like, “It’s Heaven Incorporated.” Or it’s like, “You’re working in a DMV in Purgatory” or it’s like, “This is Hell as a shopping mall.”

Alex: I think they’re big fans of Jean-Paul Sartre, where it’s like, “Hell is other people.” Well, we have what, the good place now, we have so many of those actual, factual successful comedies on air that deal with it that maybe you should get another idea.

Nick: Yeah, and look, I have written my own comedy that involves a lot of hell elements and Christian mythology and whatever so I’m no stranger to this. But really, it is such an overdone concept and there’s very little you can bring to it that’s new at this point, so I’d to avoid that for now. Continuing on that role, the second coming of Jesus as a comedy. I’ve seen that all the time too. It’s like, “Hey, Jesus is back and he’s a drop out stoner in Brooklyn or something.” Or, “Jesus is back and he’s a bad boss at an office building.”

Alex: Please tell me that one of those scripts had Jesus with the S replaced by the number two. Like it’s a “Jesus 2.”

Nick: Probably, Jesus is back as a millennial. All of it is just again, such an overdone concept and it’s very hard to do something clever and nuanced with that outside of the initial joke of the premise. Another one which I’m sure a million people have heard is a bunch of 20-something friends just trying to make it in life, or trying to make it in the big city, or trying to make it in the entertainment industry. Anything that’s just an amorphous blob of friends who are all… It’s basically writers usually writing about their own friend group and putting it into a script and they’re being like, “Hey, this is us and here’s all the funny things that happened to us one time, and we all lived in the same house.” And unless… Again, unless you have some kind of hook into that or some kind of genuine work on those characters, it’s so hard to do anything with that. Especially if you actually want to get it made. Usually the only way these things get made is if a very established showrunner is on board with it. Or because the script is just such a high quality, or you have big named talent attached, something like Happy Endings.

Alex: Yeah, there’s so many of those wannabe Entourages out there that it doesn’t make sense. Entourage worked because of Mark Wahlberg’s name, and then they got all those people attached to the project. But in the vacuum, if you’re nobody, nobody cares about your life story.

Nick: Yeah, just because everyone’s had that experience, it doesn’t mean that everyone’s gonna wanna read that script. So another one that we get a lot is, it’s a fake X who has to become a real X. So it might be a former TV cop now has to become a real cop or even in Psych, it’s like a fake psychic has to pretend to be a real psychic. It’s such… The grinder, a fake TV lawyer has to pretend to be a real lawyer. That’s been done a million times.

Alex: That’s half of Fox’s slate, right?

[laughs]

Nick: Exactly, exactly. As amusing as that concept is again, it’s been overdone and just avoid that for a while. Everything is cyclical, I’m sure in another few years, there’ll be another rather wave of things in the way that time travel stories has been overdone recently, but for now avoid them. And the last one that I wanted to comment on is the classic middle-aged white guy just trying to get his life back on track, whether he’s recovering from alcoholism, or he’s just had a divorce, or whatever it happens to be. Again done so much, you’re not gonna do really a better job than Californication or something which has already run for nine seasons. It’s basically the older writer version of the young 20-something friends, is the middle aged guy just trying to make it work.

Alex: Wow, that’s sounds so riveting, Nick. We’ll be doing down the line another pitch episode but in the meantime…

Nick: That wraps up our little Odds and Ends segment, and let’s get on with the show.

1 – Purpose of dialogue

Alex: So let’s start talking about dialogue. Nick, can you tell us what is the point of dialogue.

Nick: So the purpose of dialogue and what you can use it for is to convey character and relationships, and also power dynamics. You can use it to convey exposition. You can use it to move the story forward. You can use dialogue to create conflict and obstacles. And you can also use it to provide humor and comic relief. You can really do almost anything with dialogue in terms of telling a story. Look at plays, you put two people in a room and you can tell a satisfying story almost entirely through dialogue. Should you do that in TV? Well, not usually. Visuals and action are just as important. It’s more of a visual medium, but many shows, especially comedies and multi-cam comedies, or say an Aaron Sorkin drama rely heavily on long reams of dialogue between characters. You’ll look at the script and see entire pages with barely an action line on them.

Alex: Right. I think the reason why those shows specifically rely so much on dialogue is because those multi-cam setups were traditionally more theatrical and then the conceit. Obviously television historically has been between radio and theater, at least originally was. There was so many shows that were filmed theater pieces, or radio plays just put on screen. And then you have those multi-cams as recent as maybe Friends. Friends is a great example of something that is heavily relying on comedy, but it also uses all the theatrical tropes. David Trimmer is a great example of an actor who knew that this was basically a theater being filmed, or a play being filmed in front of a live audience, that’s why he would be so physical with his comedy. But at the end of the day, dialogue is really about communication. And communication or language is about sharing something specific with someone else. How you phrase that thought illuminates who you are as a person. If you look at what people say in a conversation, it’s often about someone arguing their point. How exactly they go about it is the crux of who they are. Now some people will want to express detail stories about their life experiences to draw you in. And others may just give logical arguments like Spock. But whatever the framing is, that is how that person speaks and why dialogue is important.

Nick: So now that we know what dialogue is and what it’s used for, what makes good dialogue?

Alex: Good dialogue sounds natural. Even though when you’re looking at it specifically it really isn’t natural, but it should definitely make you think it is.

Nick: Yeah, it’s more efficient than real-life talk, which we’ll get into later. I think that good dialogue also feels true to the characters. It’s as though they are the only person who could or would say that. And it’s the classic covering up the names on the script trick and seeing if you can know who is who without seeing what the name is.

Alex: That ties also to it being entertaining. If a script is in a college essay or a class with people just monologuing to death about an argument or some fact, you want it to be entertaining.

Nick: I think good dialogue is also motivated. We understand why someone would say that in this situation or we’ve seen the plot and the character events leading up to this and understand, then how those things would make this person say that dialogue. And also I think it’s original, I think that things that are said and presented in a fun new way that we haven’t heard a million times before is often good dialogue.

Alex: Right, you may also wonder about the need of dialogue in a general way. I know the episodes Hush on Buffy, that we actually talked about a while ago and the BoJack Horseman Under the Sea episode were both celebrated and became iconic because of their lack of dialogue. But you have to keep in mind that those are anomalies. They’re exceptions to the rule, not the norm of what the show usually is. And they work because they’re in stark contrast to what people see in the rest of the show like some quirky written lines.

Nick: You can’t make an entire series like that. And you definitely can’t make that your pilot because you have to set the expectation with the series.

Alex: I will say this, if you’re successfully making a stunt pilot that is completely silent and it works, that will blow people’s mind. But I feel like in 99.9999% of the case it’s not gonna work.

2 – Specificities of dialogue: style and character

Alex: Let’s talk about the specificities of dialogue. First up, let’s discuss the distinction between natural dialogue and style-less dialogue.

Nick: Yes, as we were saying before, dialogue shouldn’t really read like everyday speech. People in real life are inarticulate; they ramble, they repeat themselves, they interrupt, and talk over each other constantly. And this will say a lot of pointless things and filler words like, umm. In television, you need to be efficient and effective; keeping in mind the pacing, the context, the character, the story, all that kind of thing. At the same time, you probably shouldn’t swing too far the other way into what I call Sorkinitis, where even the intern who brings them coffee is firing up zingers like Oscar Wilde.

Alex: It’s terminal, Nick.

[laughs]

Alex: I would also say the distinction comes from the kind of story you are doing. Something like Mumblecore or, by the Duplass brothers will have a very different approach to dialogue than Sorkin, or even Shonda Rhimes. But whatever style you’re going with, in my mind I think it’s important to be consistent within your approach to that story. A character speaking like Cersei wouldn’t work in a world like Grey’s Anatomy for many reasons, including the cadence of her speech, or even what is being stated in the first place. Now on top of the style there’s also elements attached to the characters. Obviously what defines a character is what they do, but on top of that, it’s also what they say and how they say it.

Nick: Yeah, I’m curious to get your thoughts, what do think about writing accents and other idiosyncrasies into the dialogue? In the wording of it?

Alex: I mean, personally, unless an accent is intrinsic to the comprehension of a character, or rather the lack of comprehension to that character, then I usually won’t write it within dialogue lines. And the reason is simple: you still want the script to be legible. You probably don’t want your reader to try to decipher every line a regular character is saying, unless that is the intent within the story. Now, if someone is eating food and trying to talk at the same time, you can and I usually do it. You can write that in the dialogue, instead of saying, “Nice to meet you.” It’s like, “Nice to meet you.” whatever. And the same goes for someone mispronouncing a name, or word, in that case you may wanna write it phonetically. But those are specific, temporary examples. The only time I would consider writing out accents in a script on a line-to-line basis is if everyone within the story is equally struggling to understand that character specifically because of that accent. But as a reader I do believe it gets really annoying if you have to decide every sentence that character speaks.

Nick: I think the same with writing stuff in foreign languages, just write it in English and then use the parenthetical brackets in Urdu, or whatever it happens to be, instead of making us go to Google Translate.

Alex: Now what are your thoughts on ellipsis, hyphens, italics, kind of the stylistic choices of dialogue?

Nick: I think with those they all have their place, but as always less is more. It’s totally fine to use any or all of those, but once you start to overdo it, each of them lose their meaning and their effectiveness, so I would try not to have more than two on a page of those different kind of little tools. Be careful of ellipsis and hyphens dictating how the actor should deliver a line. And technically, I think they’re meant to be used to indicate someone trailing off or being interrupted in their dialogue, but very often they’re used to add a little mini beat to a line either before or at the end of it or have something seen more sudden, which again is valid but should be used sparingly or maybe only when it would negatively impact the readers’ understanding or enjoyment if it wasn’t used.

3 – Finding your dialogue

Nick: Let’s talk about the process that we each used to find that dialogue, how do we decide what’s gonna come out of this character’s mouth.

Alex: Well, I read The Secret.

[laughs]

Alex: For me the first step is usually about listening, reading and ingesting everything. The stories that I tend to write are so specific within their particular worlds that I tried to consume content directly related to that perspective and get to know how people in that world think or talk. For example, when I wrote a pilot set during World War II, I obviously did my research reading about what happened but on top of that, I was also watching movies both set in that era as well as movies written in that era. Now I did both because there’s a distinction in the style of writing dialogue over the past six years obviously. Now the same idea applies with contemporary settings, although I may watch some historical footage here or documentaries there about a specific business or setting to hear how people talk about their own world. And after that, I can find my own take on those ideas down the line but I find that knowing the short hands of the vernacular of those industries is critical in approaching how people living and working there speak.

Nick: What was the biggest surprise to you doing that research that people didn’t say, or do back then that you couldn’t put in? Any particular word or way that people spoke?

Alex: I think it’s the slang, the slang is the biggest thing. And whether it is a procedural or a peer piece, it’s those weird sentences or phrases or words that you’re not gonna be using in the 21st century. To go back to that example of the legal procedural that was set in a very specific area of the law, the judges for example are not called judges, they were called surrogates and if I only knew sort of that cursory level of that law, just based on watching a bunch of legal dramas, I wouldn’t be using judges instead of surrogates. That’s a very different approach. Now, in terms of writing dialogue for each scene, I will often start out by writing the basic version of the exchange in a notepad, whether it’s a physical notepad or a digital notepad. And they’re there to literally help me figure out the pacing of the story and the dance of that exchange. Maybe two characters are talking very fast and bouncing off each other at a say in speed, or maybe it’s someone monologuing about something for a page. But whatever the case may be, I first worry about what people want to say, and then try to slowly work my way to how they say it. They say you have subtext versus text.

Nick: Yeah, a lot of time for me, once I sit down to write, it’s just the first thing thing that comes into my head. As I’m writing a scene, the cogs are working, and sometimes it’s like a runaway train, I’m just trying to catch it and get it all down. So, I’m rarely sitting there searching for like, “Hmm, what should Jessica say?” Especially in comedy, you just have these comedic reflexes and instincts that go, “Boom” and you need to be quick about that. But that being said, what comes in your head first is not always the best choice. Often when I’m re-reading a scene, I’m like, “Oh, actually they wouldn’t say that. That character doesn’t sound like that,” or “We don’t even need this line here.” And where you can get caught is sitting there stuck on one line going, “But what would they say or what’s a funnier joke here?” And you can spend 10 or 15 minutes trying to figure it out, or going back and forth to the writing partner. And that point, I find it’s just useful to put a placeholder in there and star it and come back to it later. Don’t waste time trying to make it perfect when you can just be getting more work done later in the script and come back to it with fresh eyes.

Alex: Do you think it’s easier to write a joke or a good line of dialogue?

Nick: I don’t know. For me, there’s not as much of a distinction. I think that a joke is always a good line of dialogue like a joke should never be removed from the story that it’s just like, “And here’s a useless pun for a line.” It should always be involved in what the characters and people are doing. With comedy, we have this great barometer of whether something is working or not, and that it doesn’t make you laugh. Laughing is an involuntary reflex, so when you hear something and these people in the writer’s room or you and your writing partner and you laugh out loud, you know something is there. Drama, it might be a little bit harder ’cause I imagine when you write a good line, you’re not always crying at it are you, Alex? Sorry.

Alex: Always, yeah. I’m shedding tears reading my own scripts, that’s what usually happens.

[laughs]

Nick: Yeah, but aside from that just riffing style, often when I do sit down to a scene, it’s like, “What needs to happen here and what are the main… ” For example, three points that need to happen in the scene, it’s like someone needs to get to this point and this needs to happen and then we need to get to here, and then so that would just be a good overarching structure in my head as we’re playing around.

Alex: Do you often just write out jokes in those first draft stages?

Nick: Only if it comes to us. I’m not trying to push a bunch of jokes in there. I’m more than happy to write it as a fairly straight scene and then re-visit it later and make it funny. It really just depends on what kind of comes to us as we go.

Alex: Now what are your thoughts on finding dialogue in other places?

Nick: I often find it helps to picture a particular actor or a comic in the role, and then just go with what you think they would say or do, or how you think they would react here because you know their kind of personality so well from TV or from movies. And you can also do that with using inspiration from people you know in real life, your friends, your family, just as long as you have a rock solid concept of who this person is, and then how they interact with people and the world around them, rather than just using this character as an empty vessel for a writer’s lines in the story that are coming out.

Alex: I definitely agree that as a writer, it’s very important to learn about different cultures and different people. And as an immigrant, I had to adapt to another language and culture, so I had to figure out why certain people talked a certain way. And I’m actually right now learning Mandarin not because of some immediate practical reason, but just because I was interested in the syntax and how that language works on a structural level. It’s just another way of approaching language and dialogue that I found interesting to look at.

Nick: And definitely, it opens up different parts of your brain and gets you thinking about things.

Alex: Honestly it doesn’t even have to be as cerebral as studying new languages. I actually love watching the live feeds of Big Brother because you hear people from across America talk about everything in a very kind of naturalistic way.

4 – What makes bad dialogue and how to fix it

Alex: We’ve talked about the basics of good dialogue and our own approaches with dialogue but what makes bad dialogue?

Nick: You often hear this term used that something is clunky, that it’s a clunky line, or that was a clunker. So, when you’re talking about that, some people might also call it bumping or pulling the reader out of something, so that’s when a line is just clearly there to serve a functional purpose. Maybe it’s exposition, maybe it’s a segue to another topic, or it’s some kind of forced conflict that’s being put in there. I think that at that point, we stop believing that this is a real thing that a person is saying, and we see the writer there, pulling the strings and we see all the cog work moving in the script. And for me that usually happens because it’s maybe out of character, it doesn’t sound like them, or as we said before, it’s something you’re not motivated to say or just feels like far too convenient. Another term people use for this is it feels contrived or forced.

Alex: Yeah, I think one of the symptoms is this idea of speechifying it. It’s something that a lot of shows and movies love to do, and that is to have someone make a major speech, to rally the troops before some climatic moment in the story. And although it can definitely be a cathartic worthwhile moment, it can also run the risk of using that concept in other parts of the story that don’t really need it. So for example, a character is pontificating about their perspective, just so that the audience can learn what they’re thinking or want to do, or maybe they’re just shutting an argument of another character just so that the story can move forward. And if it is and warranted by the character themselves as in they’re not usually the kind of character that would be making a speech at that point, then they should not be saying those things in the first place. There needs to be a consistency in the dialogue on that way.

Alex: And I think another aspect of that is the subtext where there’s text element that I mentioned earlier and an example of that is the opening scene of the news room which is another Aaron Sorkin show where you have this character pontificating for five minutes about the values of America and whatever his beliefs are, and I actually find that scene very annoying because this is a clear example of Aaron Sorkin just pontificating about his beliefs on screen for five minutes with no real narrative need. It was literally just there to basically jerk himself off, I feel like.

Nick: Yeah, I know you’ve said before that you’re not a big fan of the way Game of Thrones handles a lot of their thematic stuff and their subtext ’cause it’s literally just someone standing there, quoting the theme of the show or whatever. Spelling it out for everyone.

Alex: Yeah, one of the scenes is I’m sure I’ve mentioned it again but the Littlefinger scene in the second season where he talks about the “ladder of chaos” to Varys and there’s just two characters literally watching the physical throne and talking about the themes of the show and the episode which is just climbing the ladder of chaos over a montage.

Nick: It would be like in True Detective if they were just driving and didn’t say anything to each other and he just turns around and he’s like, “Hey, you know what, time is flat circle.”

[chuckle]

Nick: ‘Do you wanna hear more about what I think about that?” But instead, they’d managed to frame it within a personal conflict of these two different people’s beliefs and then tie it into the stories.

Alex: That’s a good example. I’ll bring it up, next time we’re driving up north, Nick. “You know what?”

Nick: “Have you ever thought about the meaning of like… ” [chuckle] Let’s have this conversation for no story reason. Well let’s get into some common pitfalls that people can avoid in terms of what’s gonna make it bad dialogue.

Alex: One of the main pitfalls is starting the scenes too early or ending it too late, and I specifically relay that to dialogue. For example someone saying, “Hi Mark.”

Nick: Oh, “Hi Mark.”

Alex: All those kinds of pleasantries. And the reason why nobody says, “Hello” when answering the phone on TV is because it’s redundant and useless. You want to be efficient by conveying what the character is intent on saying and nothing more. The filler only works when you’re doing it purposefully. For example an awkward first date where the two people have nothing else to say besides, “Hi, hi, how are you?” “I’m fine. How… ” You know, it’s really awkward, Nick. I feel like there’s some awkwardness between us, right now.

[chuckle]

Nick: Is this is a first date? You didn’t tell me.

[chuckle]

Alex: On Episode 51, it’s our first date. And on the flip side, there’s also this idea of just writing dialogue, heavy scenes for dialogue’s sake, thinking that that is the main entertainment, kind of like what Tarantino does. “Oh, let me just write this awesome fast paced dialogue scene between two people in a car talking about McDonald’s.”

Nick: I think that’s really common in scripts particularly with pop culture references. Maybe we can call this one Tarantinoitis. I don’t know. I guess he’s so much in scripts like someone’s just standing there talking to someone like, “Did you ever see that movie where this guy did X? What an idiot.” For example in like Clerks they were talking about the contractors on the Death Star. Even though it’s kind of clever. That kind of stuff, typically it’s kind of thing that belongs like a standup set or on an episode of Cracked’s web series After Hours. Not in the middle of the script, unless it’s something that kinds of pays off or has some relation to the character or the themes, or if that’s just your voice or your schtick like Quentin Tarantino on Kevin Smith but they beat you to it and they do it better that you.

Alex: That immediately brought to mind the scene in X-Men: Apocalypse when the mutants just came out of Return of the Jedi, and they were complaining about how the third movie is always the worst and it seemed a little bit too meta, relating it to Apocalypse.

Nick: Right. But at least it had some meta joke to it and wasn’t just like, “I could get some really funny dialogue in here from this character if I go off on some rant that sounds like it should be in my Improv 101 show.” So another thing we talked about before subtext, bad dialogue is when a character states exactly what they want or feel on the surface, specially feels. If someone’s like, “I’m so angry right now.” They say that out loud, there’s a much better way that you can handle that.

Alex: The secret to that is just always be green.

[laughs]

Nick: Yes, and the other thing is obvious and unmotivated exposition; telling each other things that they already know about the world or the story or each other. Like, “Jimmy, we’ve been friends for 20 years. I was the best man at your wedding.” Even when you try to fit that into him being like, “So you can trust me,” it still feels forced.

Alex: That’s basically the same as repeating people’s names, right? Nick.

[laughs]

Nick: Yes, Alex. When people repeat dialogue like that Alex, it sounds really silly. Doesn’t it, Alex?

Alex: Yes, Nick. It really does, Nick.

[laughs]

Nick: Again like cliche and trope lines especially famous lines from other movies, sometimes people will use them in a script as an homage or direct reference but even then it’s questionable. If your character says, “You’re tearing me apart… ”

Alex: Lisa?

[laughs]

Nick: That’s either a cliche or a reference to the room and in either way it’s like… It just bumps the reader out of that emotion. Another thing that is a common mistake is character’s talking to other characters about action or events the audience has already seen on screen. The audience doesn’t need a recap or retelling of these events ’cause they just watched that entire scene. Just because that character wasn’t there it doesn’t mean that we have to sit through it again or someone explains it you. Then you can just cut in on them having finished telling them what happened if that’s important to you.

Alex: Unless it’s a CBS show and it’s the third act.

[laughs]

Nick: Yeah, if you’re coming back from an ad break, by all means please repeat the information because the network needs you to. Another thing is thinking about the context of the dialogue so if you’re writing dialogues when it’s too formal or too casual it doesn’t match the situation. In real life people do this thing called code switching and that’s the way that you talk to you parents and the way you talk to your buddies in the football team is very different and even though you are a consistent self and person, in between these two situations, you’re going to talk differently and you’re going to act differently. As a result, characters’ dialogue should adapt to the context in the situation around them while still retaining their fundamental character. Unless of course you’re playing it for comedy in which case a very formal British Lord speaking in a… Very properly in the middle of a pub full of soccer hooligans is probably a good choice. Also another thing that’s important to understand is how one character speaks to another, it can convey the power dynamic between them. So in a situation where everyone should be respectful, if someone’s very dismissive then that tells you something about those two characters, or if they’re being casual or that kind of thing.

Alex: And again I think a lot of it is about contrast right, it’s because you have those clearly defined dynamics between these characters, and that is why it works either as a comedy device or as a dramatic device. For example, if you know someone says, “father” and this other character says “dad” then that obviously illustrates their dynamic. There’s also on Star Trek, if you look at Star Trek, the way certain aliens speak is very specific to the characters. Spock for example never uses contractions. So that’s something to look out for in your dialogue as well as, what are the specificities.

Nick: Another thing is not trimming the fat in your dialogue when you’re repeating that same information twice in a scene, or even in a line sometimes. Once a character has made their point or something has been communicated to the audience, it’s rarely necessary to repeat it at least in the exact same way.

Alex: If you leave the same sort of arguments be bounced back and forth, that’s just a wasted space especially when you have that ping-pong type exchange between two people, you still want to keep that argument compelling instead of just repeating yourself just to fill up that whatever, like 60-page limit. If nothing new is being said or nothing exciting is happening within the action, then chances are you can actually substantially tighten the entire scene.

Nick: It’s like when you’re writing an essay in college and you either didn’t know what you were talking about, and you needed to make a word limit and you just start repeating things in different ways and rephrasing it on the page.

Alex: We all know that feeling.

Nick: Yeah, don’t do that in screenwriting. I often find when I’m writing that I’ll get into a flow and be like, “Yeah.” And then she says this, and he says that. Especially when you’re writing with a partner and you’re bouncing off each other you’re like, “And then this happens and then this happens.” And we stop and realize that we have two pages of conversation and we only really needed one, or we only really needed half a page to achieve what we wanted. So often when you’re in that flow, characters are just responding for the sake of responding or taking turns, or we thought it’d be funny if this person said this here. But when you go back through, you can just strip a lot of that away. You can cut lines entirely or you can replace them with an action or a visual instead. All right, so if you read through the script and you realize that you’ve got some real clunky dialogue there, how do you start to fix that? Or what are some tips and tricks?

Alex: The first thing, and that’s actually even in the first draft, is to start with a bad version and work from there. If you’re stuck and can’t quite find the rhythm of the scene or exactly how your characters express themselves, then don’t worry about either of those things, and just write out the actual subtext as text of the dialogue. Then you have something to work with that you can edit, reverse, and transform into subtext instead of characters outright stating what they think.

Nick: That’s a really important thing to learn as a writer is just to be able to write something you’re unhappy with, so that you have it on the page, and then be able to fix it later. Another little trick that you can use with bad dialogue or something that feels clunky is to turn it into a conflict instead. So if two characters are disagreeing on something or they have different wants, and so they say things to each other in pursuit of some goal or hitting against an obstacle, then it grounds whatever this exposition or whatever this thing we need to get out is in character and personal and emotional stakes.

Alex: And the way to express that is in the dialogue flow. You need to have some flow within the dialogue because writing dialogue is a bit like composing music. There’s a certain rhythm to how the characters express themselves as individuals and as an ensemble. If two characters are yelling at each other in quick succession, and suddenly one of them starts monologuing about their feelings, the sudden change of pace will be extremely jarring. Again, this isn’t a good or bad in of itself, but this is something you want to keep in mind as being intentional instead of just an accident.

Nick: Another little thing you can do is to make whatever this piece of dialogue, that’s currently not working, is something that another character needs to know, especially exposition. If one character needs something from the other one, for example, it’s a cop and a suspect in an interrogation room, then the process of getting this information out is actually going to be dramatic and not just conveniently stated to the audience for no reason.

Alex: Lastly, and this goes back to the whole flow of it, you want to read out loud your script either to yourself or have some table read. Hearing the script is important to understand the pacing of it. Just because the line looks great on paper, doesn’t mean it will sound good. Reading, speaking, listening to your dialogue is a key part of writing, that’s why TV shows and movies have table reads before shoot.

Takeaways and Resources

Alex: All right, Nick. What are some takeaways this week?

Nick: Number one, dialogue is about communication. Whether that’s communicating story, character, conflict, or any of the other elements at your disposal.

Alex: Number two, good dialogue is motivated true to character and sounds natural while still being efficient and effective.

Nick: And number three, whether it’s an unwarranted monologue or just filler, bad dialogue is often repetitive, inconsequential, or it breaks your immersion with the story.

Alex: And what are some resources for our listeners?

Nick: A book that I like is one called Dialogue Secrets from William Martell or Bill Martell. He has that screenwriting…

Alex: Of the Martell house.

Nick: Yes, of the Martell clan. He has that screenwriting book series called The Blue Books, and I think we’ve talked about one or two of them before on this podcast. They are very well written, they’re nice and concise and you can go and get them on Kindle or physical copies on Amazon and we’ll give a link there as well.

Alex: This was actually gonna be my resource this week because this book is amazing, but Nick stole it from me. We’re having a conflict right now and I can’t express myself. Anyway, I also have an additional recommendation, and that is whatever you’re working on right now try to find people from that world talking about that world. It’s what I was referring to earlier in the episode about my own approach to finding dialogue. So if you’re writing a cop procedural set in Louisiana, find a way to hear what cops working in Louisiana sound like and what they talk about. Maybe it’s you watching a documentary, maybe it’s footage from some car chase, maybe it’s literally spending a weekend over there. And even if you’re writing something completely foreign about made up alien cultures, nothing exists in vacuum. You probably based some of their customs off existing human cultures or something like that, so what is some content related to those that you can find? I think any field, any world, any person, any character, what have you, there’s always content out there that will indicate some speech pattern or some language you can learn from. Basically get your ear out.

Nick: And on that note, we would like to thank all of our listeners for taking the time to tune on in and listen to Paper Team.

Alex: You can get all the show notes for this episode at paperteam.co/51. And also next week probably, you’re gonna be able to get a transcript for this episode @paperteam.co/51transcript.

Nick: And we would also love if you could leave us some reviews, you can do that at paperteam.co/iTunes. And as we have been doing, we’re gonna read out a couple of reviews that our listeners have left.

Alex: And the first one is by Chas Fisher of the Draft Zero podcast which I believe is an Australian fella.

Nick: He is, yes. The Draft Zero podcast is fantastic. If no one’s listened to it, you should definitely go check that out, I’m big fans of them, Chas is a great guy, I’ve chatted to him before online.

Alex: Chas wrote a review entitled “Perfect for Emerging Writers.” And he wrote, “Great mix of craft as well as business side in aimed at below the “do you tip the studio valet” level and with a nice focus on TV.” Thank you, Chas.

Nick: Yeah, we appreciate that. Maybe in the future we’ll do a little collaboration with Draft Zero.

Alex: That would be amazing.

Nick: The other review that we also… I should note that we recently discovered that there are other versions of iTunes than just the US one, so we’ve found a couple of these in the Australian and Canadian and other iTunes.

Alex: Yeah, there’s like a meta review website that takes all the reviews from the different shops around the world’s… The iTunes stores around the world using those reviews and I think we had about five additional or six additional reviews that we never knew about going all the way back to like August, 2016.

Nick: Yeah, so we apologize to anyone if we have missed your review, we just found them and we’ll get around to reading them.

Alex: Speaking of…

Nick: Here’s another one from Australia by a reviewer entitled “Olympic comedy, great for new writers moving to or living in LA.” And they say, “This is a sensational podcast from two young writers in the thick of things in LA. As a young comedy writer myself, it’s great to hear from two people at the same stage as I am, full of great tips and tightly produced.”

Alex: Well, that is awesome, thanks for the compliment.

Nick: And as always, if you would like to leave us one of those reviews, that would help us get more new listeners and build our little community up. And of course, once again, we would like to thank our sponsor, the Tracking Board’s Launch Pad writing competitions. Paper Team’s listeners can save $15 at the next purchase, just use the code PAPERTEAM at the checkout to receive your discount. You can learn more about all of the Launch Pad’s current and upcoming writing competitions by visiting tblaunchpad.com, and I know that their feature competition is open now, I believe the first early deadline is July 9, but you can submit after a month or two after that, so throw your stuff in there and see what happens.

Alex: Yeah, and the code is PAPERTEAM, all one word and all caps. And as always I’m on Twitter @TVCalling.

Nick: I’m @_njwatson.

Alex: If you have any thoughts, feedback, interesting lines of dialogue you wanna share, you can send them at [email protected].

Alex: And next week we’ll be at Comic-Con 2017. Last year I did an episode with Maggie Herman on the road back from STCC, and Nick and I are doing something similar with another friend of ours, Lily Cabello who’s been working as a research analyst for network, she’ll be telling us everything you need to know about Nielsen ratings among other things. So see you next week.

PT51 shownotes and audio episode available here